It happened that the interview, which was agreed in advance, took place, and then was prepared and published in the newspaper just a day before Mykola KYZYM employed in the position of the First Deputy Minister, was replaced by Andriy VITRENKO, previously, the Deputy Minister for European Integration. Obviously, the European factor will intensify at the new stage, and this is good … But at the same time, the problems that Mykola Kyzym spoke about in his “ultimate” interview as the First Deputy Minister (in charge of science) remain acute and debatable, and his thoughts and views on their solution are extremely interesting.
Spotlight interview
MYKOLA KYZYM: “SCIENCE SHOULD WORK FOR THE PRIORITIES OF THE STATE, AND THE STATE SHOULD CREATE CONDITIONS FOR IT”
For thirty years, science was managed in independent Ukraine by the State Committee for Science and Technology, the Ministry of Science and Technology, and agencies with different denominations, and finally by the joint Ministry of Education and Science, where the first Deputy Minister of Education has been in charge of science for the last year, and this is Mykola Kyzym, the Corresponding Member of the National Academy of Sciences of Ukraine, Doctor of Economics, Professor, who took over the “scientific watch” at the Ministry of Education and Science in July last year, and previously passed a substantial professional, scientific, teaching, management school. His opinions are often sharp and diverge from the latest trends in the scientific sphere of Ukraine, but he is convinced that without radical but balanced changes there will be no progressive development of science or the State as a whole.
EXPECTATIONS CAME UPON INCOMPETENCE
– Mr. Kyzym, we are rapidly approaching the 30th anniversary of Ukraine’s Independence. It is time to analyze and time to reflect on milestones. Each of us who has experienced it, has his or her own memories of those days when history changed dramatically and the independent Ukraine was born. And what do you remember about those events?
– First of all, I remember that there was great euphoria, we were convinced of the happy future of independent Ukraine, and no one thought about the ways to build the new state. Ukraine, being a part of the Soviet Union, was not independent in its actions. All economic decisions were made in the Union Ministries located in Moscow.
The similar situation was with academic and educational science, which was also under the Union subordination.
When the first democratically elected people’s deputies, people who fought for Ukraine’s independence among them, entered the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine, we all hoped that they would change the country. But they had no experience. And the party nomenklatura quickly took them under its wing, and the party bosses immediately began to take over State property. We followed the path, I would say, a communist-capitalist path. Then criminal elements crept into the new government, who quickly rushed in, saying that there was no point in plundering “petty” if it was possible to seize State property and receive significant dividends. There was a real threat that the country could turn into a criminal capitalist one.
Before gaining independence, Ukraine was one of the best in Europe in terms of overall production. We had such scientific, economic, and military potential that we could be among the first. And in 30 years we have what we have. Ukraine is almost the last in Europe in terms of living standards. And mainly because the real national elite did not grow in the country, but there was this old party pseudo-elite, which quickly changed its face. Unfortunately, we still do not have a strong national elite. If today the deputy is in one faction, and tomorrow in another, what is his ideology and what are his principles?
I agree with Academician Volodymyr Horbulin, who wrote in his book My Way to the Mirror-world, that Ukraine’s main problem is incompetence. That was the problem, and unfortunately, we face it today too. I would even say that the general level of incompetence in leading positions in the society is only growing.
– What, in your opinion, should be the model of society in Ukraine?
– Let’s remember the outstanding Ukrainian Bohdan Havrylyshyn, who analyzed the social systems of different countries and proposed the most appropriate system for Ukraine in his book “Towards Effective Societies” long before 1991.
– What should be the political, social, economic and value-cultural systems as components of the social pattern in Ukraine?
– I am convinced that the answer to this question could be given by scientists of the National Academy of Sciences of Ukraine, political scientists, sociologists, economists, culturologists and others. They write annual 500-page National Reports, but nobody reads them. It is necessary to write briefly, clearly, concretely and reasonably, as Havrylyshyn said.
SCIENCE SHOULD NOT BE FOR THE SAKE OF SCIENCE
– Why, in your opinion, Ukrainian science, despite all its individual and significant achievements, has not managed to become a determining force in the development and progress of our society over these 30 years?
– Please note: in countries that demonstrate progress in their socio-economic development, education and science (let’s take them as a single complex), medicine, national security, are in the first place. Three whales. Unfortunately, we have not set the same priorities for ourselves. Moreover, all these years the State underestimated science, and therefore saved on it. Scientists were rather looking for ways to survive and become self-fulfilled than to form the scientific and technical potential for socio-economic development of the State. I recently met with the delegation of scientists from Germany. They have a specific task from the State, they know what to do, what branches of science to develop, what problems of the country to work on to ensure its sustainable socio-economic development. At the same time, the State takes an active part in defining these priorities and their implementation.
But in our country, scientists set goals for themselves, and they implement them themselves. The State does not orient them, and also does not strongly motivate them. And the fact that our scientists participate in Horizon 2020 programs, and soon will participate in Horizon Europe, other international programs, and succeed, raising their status, it does not bring money to the State economy, to the budget, and does not increase the welfare of society. It’s just that some scientists receive an additional salary, which is insignificant compared to their foreign colleagues.
– But equipment, experience, skills?
– You know, modern equipment costs millions, tens of millions of dollars, and international partners do not give us such funds. They can afford to buy computers or some equipment… But not to create a modern laboratory and have us as rivals.
– Can the State do it?
– The State can do everything. I think our Academies of Sciences could do the same. Do not spray the available funds where you need and do not need, but accumulate them and create, for example, a Center for development of a vaccine against Covid.
Science should not be science for the sake of science, especially in the situation we have in our State. It should help develop the economy, work for the priorities of the State, for the well-being of our people.
WHY DOES THE BUDGETARY ORGANIZATION HAVE A SUPERVISORY BOARD?
– According to the applicable legislation, the Ministry of Education and Science is the main body in the system of central executive bodies, which ensures the formation and implementation of State policy in the field of education, in scientific, scientific-technical and innovative activities. But at the same time, the laws are approved in the country that relieve the Ministry of these duties.
– Do you mean your speech at the hearings on the National Research Foundation in the Verkhovna Rada Committee on Education, Science and Innovation? It was quite sharp and ambiguously perceived.
– According to the Law “On Scientific and Scientific-Technical Activity”, the Ministry of Education and Science is really completely excluded from determining the financial and personnel policy of the Foundation, from control over its activities. The founder of the Foundation is the Cabinet of Ministers, but it does not manage its activities either. However, it is a budgetary institution, and therefore such removal does not meet the requirements of the Law of Ukraine “On Management of State Property”.
Speaking at the hearings, I referred to the assessments of the Foundation’s activities, which were given by the participants-competitors themselves, and there were many of these assessments during the public discussion of amendments to the Law of Ukraine “On Scientific and Scientific-Technical Activities”. Feedback came from Academies, Universities and individual scientists. They wrote about shortcomings in the organization of competitive selection and untimely financing of projects, about the bureaucratization of many procedures, violation of the principle of equal access to participation in grants, in particular, discrimination against socio-humanitarian sciences, problems with experts…
I do not want to repeat my remarks, a lot has been written about them, including your newspaper. I will say only about the organizational model of the Foundation, where the Executive Body and the Scientific Council are subordinated to the Supervisory Board which is the Scientific Committee of the National Council for the Development of Science and Technology. This is a unique Ukrainian invention, there is no such thing in the world. Why shall the budgetary organization have a Supervisory Board? It is not a joint stock company.
That is why I asked at the hearings: who will be responsible for the inefficient use of budget financing? After all, it is a lot of money. Only this year, UAH 732 million has been allocated for the NRF scientific research. This is almost as much as the State budget channels to the entire educational science of Ukraine!
We approached these issues constructively: we proposed to create a working group of representatives of all stakeholders, work out amendments to the Law “On Scientific and Scientific-Technical Activities” and review the entire regulatory framework for the NRF functioning by early next year.
We must understand that the science is the principle thing for the progress of the State! Without science, the country will not be modern and advanced. And this is what our scientists should do, and they should be supported by the Ukrainian State. Scientists and companies from around the world will never move here to bring modern technology. We must develop and implement new technologies ourselves, basing on the achievements of world science and contributing to it.
How does the national idea sound?
– What progress achieved in science in thirty years can we mention?
– Academician Zagorodniy, President of the National Academy of Sciences of Ukraine, told you about it in his interview. (“Svit” newspaper, № 23 – 24, 2021 – L.О.) He spoke about the achievements in materials science, electron beam and other technologies, our participation in the discoveries at CERN, high-yielding varieties in agriculture and new drugs… That’s right. We have always had, have and will have scientists who, in spite of everything, achieve high results and move world science forward. The key words here are “in spite of everything” and “world science”. But I would like to emphasize that today we need to focus our scientific efforts mainly on raising our own country, its economy. Let us recall Bohdan Havrylyshyn, his “To Effective Societies” address, which he dedicated to Ukraine. An effective society based on efficient economy and moral values on which we build this economy. And this is impossible to do without education, without science, and without a healthy person. Here are the basic principles of our lives. A kind of national idea, if you will.
(When the Head of Naftogaz receives (with billions in debts of the company) millions in bonuses, or when some officials are paid a hefty salary just for “not to steal” or “not to take bribes” – what are the moral principles?)
Fair reward and priority of values. That’s what should be in the society. The task of the State is to eliminate the “distortions” that have been created in all spheres of public life, and in the economy it is needed to determine priorities and direct them to the realization of the possibilities of science. For example, now we have a problem in energy.
We announce the year of energy saving and energy efficiency! And we design such developments that it would possible to save, for example, 20-30% of gas and electric power consumption. Science must offer new approaches, new technologies, transfer and introduce them into the country’s economy so that it is powerful and modern.
REFORM THE ACADEMY
– We know that the Ministry of Education and Science on behalf of the State ensures the formation and implementation of State policy in the sphere of education, science, technology and innovation. In your jurisdiction, in fact, there are two wings of science – academic and higher educational one. Are these components equal, or one is elder and the other one is smaller? How does the Ministry of Education and Science manage them?
– When I was offered to be a deputy minister, the National Academy of Sciences of Ukraine said: go, because if someone else starts reforming the Academy, it will be demolished. And now they say: we are self-governing, we are independent, we are autonomous… Although, how can you be independent if you receive budget financing?
The State cannot be satisfied only with the fact that a scientist – “academic” or “educational” – has published an article, raised his/her Hirsch index, his/her status. The State needs economic return from scientific activity. For example, I do not like the fact that we put publications, scientometric indicators, all this arithmetic in a prominent place in the evaluation of the scientist’s work! First, it is not suitable for all branches of science, and there has been a lot of discussion about it, and secondly, it shifts the concept of efficiency of the scientist’s work… In addition, the journals listed in Scopus and Web of Science have a good commercial component. Based on my own experience, I can say that a publication in the journals of socio-economic profile, which are included in these databases, costs up to 2 thousand Euros. From where shall a Ukrainian scientist with a salary of 10-12 thousand hryvnias take such money?
– How to reform the Academy? What is your point of view?
– I’ll not say much now, I’ll only say that today the Resolution “On reforming the National Academy of Sciences of Ukraine and Branch Academies” is under consideration at the Cabinet of Ministers of Ukraine.
– And how does the Ministry perceive this reform? After all, Academies also have their own reform plans… Are they joint plans?
– In general, everything is clear, and the ideas are available in the documents of the Academies: they are tasks to improve the network of scientific institutions, increase the efficiency of the use of budget funds, land plots and state-owned objects that are part of the property complexes.
However, I can say, the process is very timid. Mostly from the “flanks”. And if you look “in the center”? There is duplication of departments in the structure of Academies. There are Institutes where up to thousand scientists once worked, but now they are five times fewer.
And there are Institutes with a dozen people left. (However, the premises must be kept, otherwise they will be ruined). Therefore, it would be fairer to give job to young scientists, to reduce unnecessary structures, raise salaries. It is better to open a new laboratory using the funds that will be released, and pay young people not 10-12 thousand hryvnias, but at least the equivalent of a thousand dollars. Then they might think: whether go to Poland or stay at home.
UNIVERSITY SCIENCE
– How does the University science develop, and young people participate in research work? What is the role of the Ministry?
– Let’s be honest, today the Ministry’s capabilities are not so great. But we help higher educational institutions find their own way in scientific research. For the first time, this year the budget channels 100 million hryvnias for the basic financing of scientific and scientific-technical activities of the HEIs. What can be done with this money? So that you understand, today Universities finance only salaries and a bit of utilities. A teacher receives a maximum salary of 10-12 thousand hryvnias, if he/she has the title and status. And yet the workload is insane. When should he/she do science? However, HEIs find their niche, combine education and research, actively involve young people, maintain close ties with companies and enterprises.
For example, NTTU ” Igor Sikorsky Kyiv Polytechnic Institute”. At the “Ukraine 30. Education and Science” Forum, on the last day the exhibition showed innovative products created by scientists, there were many stands with monographs, computers with pictures, photos of laboratories.
But Kyiv Polytechnics demonstrated nanosatellite, drone, robot… The President of one of foreign companies, with whom we inspected the exhibition, said: “Now I really see what educational science is doing!”.
In August, KPI holds the tenth Festival of Innovative Projects “Sikorsky Challenge 2021: Ukraine and the World”, where the central topic will be the International Defense Investment Forum, with discussion on Ukraine’s problems and prospects until 2030.
The National University of Life and Environmental Sciences is working intensively in the sphere of agriculture.
Research in the sphere of building materials, construction and architecture is carried out at the Kyiv National University of Construction and Architecture. Kharkiv and Lviv Polytechnics also have scientific achievements that are waiting to be implemented into the national economy.
But not everyone works like that. There are many Universities that really limit their research to writing articles and monographs.
IS IT POSSIBLE TO GIVE FUNDS FOR “SCIENCE PROBLEMS”?
– Recently, we have done a lot to review the priority areas of scientific, scientific-technical and innovative activities. In May of this year, the Ministry submitted for public discussion a draft Law “On the basic principles of formation and implementation of priority areas of scientific, scientific-technical and innovative activities in Ukraine.”
– People are outraged by these priorities…
– And I’ll tell who and why is indignant. Those who did not foresee specific practical results in their scientific research, which are very needed by the State, are indignant. Do you know how it was written in the priorities formerly? For example: “Fundamental research on the most important problems of scientific and technical, socio-economic, socio-political, human potential…”. Is it possible to provide funds for the problems of development of branches of science? They should be given for the specific problems of the country. If, for example, in the scientific Institutions of the Academies of sciences and HEIs 66% of funding were channeled to basic researches, 33% – to applied researches and only 2% of total financing provided for the final product, then what are we talking about? So, there is nothing to resent. We want science to work for the State, its economy, for the well-being of the people, and, of course, for the national defense capability. But the State has to support science, which is able to make the country prosperous and defendable.
– It is clear with priorities. And what about innovation?
– Innovation is a scientific and technical product implemented into the economy. If it is not implemented, it is not an innovation. In the advanced countries to which we look up, science always has the final result, and for the most part it is implemented into the economy. The path looks like a single chain: from fundamental science – via applied science – and via implementation. In our situation the chain is broken. How to restore it? Both legislatively, first of all, and purely practically – through financing. You have a fundamental result – pass it on, cooperate, transform it into practice. But we have one fundamental topic, and dozens of researchers deal with it, and the final result for the State and society does not appear.
INNOVATION AND SCIENCE PARKS
– Today, four ministries are responsible for innovation in Ukraine. In addition to the Ministry of Education and Science, they are the Ministry of Economy, the Ministry of Strategic Industries and the Ministry of Digital Transformation. But there is no parent who can tell children what to do.
Businesses are not very interested in realizing what is emerging in science. It takes time and needs long-term loans; it is cheaper to bring ready-made technology and equipment from abroad. Previously, there were preferences: if a business invested some money in research, science or education, no taxes were taken from these funds, and if a scientific company was created, it had a tax vacation for 5 years. Today all this is gone. And science, not understanding what business needs, works on its own.
Therefore, it is necessary to make the business interested in implementing new ideas. It is necessary to help science understand what is needed for business, and give financing to fulfill the order. And the State must create this environment and unite science and business so that they work together in its interests.
– Is it the objective that science parks are supposed to be reoriented to?
– In order for a science park to be active, the State must work first: it must create an environment, premises, infrastructure for business to go there, provide the first funds.
I asked colleagues from Germany, representatives of the science park in Berlin, who help the National Academy of Sciences of Ukraine in creating the “Academ.City” innovative ecosystem, how does it work and how does the State promote it? They said that thanks to the science park, 25,000 individual working places were created. The annual volume of its products reaches one and a half billion Euros! The funds earned by the science park are fully used for its further development. By the way, there are more than 200 such parks in Germany.
Science Park is a nonprofit public institution. The State created it, gave land (German scientists do not pay taxes for it and can even rent it out and receive profit). At first, science parks receive significant funds from the State for their development, and when they begin to gain proactively, they invest all their earnings in new scientific developments. This is the requisition.
German colleagues said that initially the State financed research and projects in whole, 100%. Later the State and business financed them at 85% and 15%, respectively. And in thirty years the Science Park has reached a level where business invests 70% in its development, and the State – 30%. As we see, the State has not given up its support even now. It finances the government agencies that are located there. And the business finances the applied part, where scientific and technical development is completed and finished products are produced.
In Ukraine, science parks do not have any of these preferences.
– And what about “Academ.city”? Will it work using the German experience?
– I will say: if this project does not work on the same model as in Germany, it will work according to out custom, our way. That is, no way.
The conversation was held by Larysa OSTROLUTSKA, “Svit” newspaper № 29-30, August, 2021