30 years is a great opportunity to see if we have moved away from the “Soviet person”, how our values and social well-being have changed? And, naturally, do we have reason for optimism?
We put these and other questions to the Deputy Director of the Institute of Sociology, Corresponding Member of NASU Yevhen HOLOVAKHA.
POVERTY AND FREEDOM OR WELL-BEING AND DICTATORSHIP?
– Mister Holovakha, the 30th anniversary of Independence is a good opportunity to sum up and analyze where we are going. Each of us has his/her own memories of the day when the Act of Independence of Ukraine was adopted. And what do you remember about those events?
– It was a wonderful day, which was preceded by very “hot” weekdays for sociologists. On August 20 (when there was still a real threat of a dictatorship), we conducted a poll of Kyivans in the streets. Surprisingly, 80 percent of people reacted negatively to the “gkchp” (State Committee for the State of Emergence, SCSE). It was an evidence of mass scale disapproval of return to dictatorship and totalitarianism. People said that they did not want to return to the old days. And to the question: “What would you choose: poverty and freedom or prosperity and dictatorship?” the vast majority said they chose poverty and freedom. However, when the poverty of the 90’s came, public opinion changed. But then, at the end of August, we all chose freedom.
Then there were many troubles, public sentiments changed, but Ukrainians did not return to “prosperity and dictatorship”. And our neighbors returned… That is why Ukrainians can proudly celebrate Independence Day.
GRUMBLE AT THE MIRROR IS USELESS
– In the USSR, sociology for a great while was considered a “bourgeois science” and only in the 50-60’s it was rehabilitated. How did gaining Independence affect its progress?
– The USSR tried to keep sociologists within the framework of professional research: enterprises, labor collectives, development plans, demographics, and so on. But studying values was dangerous. They could ask: what values are you talking about? Why are you interested?
I have my own impressions of the bans. My father graduated from the Faculty of Philosophy at Moscow University and came to work in Kyiv. At that time, in the early 50’s, there were almost no philosophers in the country, they were quelled before the war. During the Stalinist years, my father wrote a monograph entitled “Sociological Worldview of Lesya Ukrainka.” When I found it, I was very surprised. I realized that the science of sociology did not exist, but the use of the word was not forbidden, with references to Karl Marx, of course. (Laughs, – author).
We started to conduct political polls during the perestroika period, in 1987, and sometimes we got into trouble. For example, when my wife in the 90’s asked the question “Should the Communist Party be banned?”, a member of the Political Bureau of the CPSU Central Committee phoned to our sociological center with threats and complaints.
But in 1990, the Institute of Sociology was opened in Kyiv, and in 1991, sociological specialties appeared in higher educational institutions (at the Karazin University in Kharkiv and the Taras Shevchenko University in Kyiv). They trained personnel, studied theories, methods of sociology, social structures, etc.
Leonid Kuchma’s Decree “On the Development of Sociological Science in Ukraine” of 2001 was to promote the development of science. Unfortunately, provisions of this document were not implemented. Moreover, both under Kuchma and after him, the authorities permanently tried to put sociology out of the way. I even have the impression that no one needs sociology in our country.
– Or the authorities need such sociology that supports those who are needed and “debunks” opponents …
– Yes, but that’s not sociology anymore. In fact, the number of state-funded places at universities decreases; formerly, thousands of students were admitted to universities in this specialty, but now only tens. Although sociologists can work in many institutions and organizations, provide people feedback to the government and consumers feedback to those who is responsible for various areas of public life. For example, doctors and patients, transporters and passengers, etc. This is a must have!
Of course, if you look bad, you don’t like the mirror very much. But to grumble at the mirror, and in our case – sociology, is useless.
Sometimes I intentionally “run into” scandals to draw attention to sociology, to explain that without this science we will live worse. One of such conflicts occurred with Cabinet Minister Dmytro Dubilet with respect to the census. He believed that it was not necessary to spend three billion hryvnias on the census and that people could be counted “by phone”. I denied that the census was not needed only by the ignorant, and a country that does not conduct a census is not a sovereign state but a territory. The territory can omit the census, and the state – no.
– One of the main areas of sociology is the monitoring of social changes. When did you start doing it?
– In the first year of the Institute’s work, Nataliia Panina began to develop the concept of annual all-Ukrainian monitoring. In April 1992, Panina conducted a pilot survey, checked whether the questions met the designed criteria, and in 1993 a monitoring toolkit was created.
Due to the fact that qualitative criteria and survey tools have been developed, we have unique information about changes in Ukrainian society. By the way, in 2014 we received the State Prize for the work “Measuring social change in Ukrainian society. Sociological monitoring (1992 – 2013)”.
PAST DECADES HAVE NOT BEEN LIVED IN VAIN
– And how did social well-being change during the years of Independence?
– All over the world it is measured by various methodologies. Ukrainians have their own, unique methodology – “Integral index of social well-being”. This is also the merit of our Institute, we developed it with Nataliia Panina, and in 1995 we conducted a survey for the first time. And since then, we have been constantly monitoring how the social well-being of Ukrainians is changing.
Reflecting on 30 years of Independence, we can ask: are we developing or degrading? Only sociologists can clearly answer this question. The economist will say what is the GDP per capita, and it will not mean anything, because in Russia it is twice as large, but the society is degrading. The politician will say: “We have stability!”, but they have stability in Belarus too, however, the society is not developing.
Society is a certain system, not separate functions. It is necessary to know the structure of the system, understand how the higher, middle and lower strata develop.
Figuratively saying, there is a “triangular” and “rhombic” society. In the first one there are a handful of rich people at the top, and a lot of poor people at the bottom. In the second one, the middle class is the most numerous stratum. In Soviet times, we had a “pseudo-rhombic” society, where many people considered themselves middle class but lived in poverty. My youth, for example, took place in the “Khrushchev” apartment of 27 square meters, where four people lived. In the understanding of Western society, this is poverty.
Ukraine started with a “triangle” and is gradually moving towards a “rhomb”.
Culture also evidences a lot about the state of the society. It helps sociologists understand: what is important to people, what fundamental values do they have, how have these values changed in thirty years? In Soviet times, well-being, health, family, and peace were important values. But they will be of no importance, if people do not have such values as control over power, participation in public life, freedom, self-realization, tolerance. These values define modern life in developed societies.
In the Department of Culture of our Institute we have a special methodology which allows to define, what values are important for Ukrainians. We see that well-being, health, family, and peace remain important, but other values line up with them: for example, the ability to control power and participate in the political life of the society. If in the 1990’s Ukrainians rated the importance of these values at three points, now it is a fair four on a five-point scale. And this means that the past decades have not been lived in vain.
We also study the psychological state of persons, their ideas about their lives. This is social well-being. There is also a methodology to study it.
We ask: “Do you have enough social benefits?”, And since the mid-90’s we monitor the perception in eleven areas of life. The lowest was in 1995-1999, followed by a rise that lasted until the 2008 crisis. Then there were falls, but we never fell to the level of the 90’s. Even in 2014-2015! In 2016, the rise began again and in 2018, social well-being crossed the line of “defined zero” for the first time. Most people gave positive answers to the questions: “Do you have the opportunity to efficiently pass your vacation?”, “Do you have the opportunity to eat conforming to your taste?”, “Do you have the modern knowledge and confidence that everything will be fine in the society?” etc. Therefore, we can say that over the past 25 years there has been an increase in the level of social perception.
People assess their social well-being better than in the past, despite the deterioration of life due to the pandemic.
UKRAINIAN IDEAL OF HAPPINESS IS IN ACHIEVEMENTS
– Do Ukrainians feel happy?
– Ukrainians are one of the unhappiest nations in Europe. From 2004 to 2014, our Institute participated in five stages of the European Social Study, where there was a question about happiness. This is the unique framework study in the EU that examines the state of the society; it is a pity that our country did not find the opportunity to participate in it, which was a condition for [ermanent cooperation of Ukrainian sociologists with the international team of the ESS.
But most Ukrainians are still happy; in Denmark about 90 percent of respondents answered positively, and in Ukraine – 55.
I want to say that Ukrainians are Europeans by psychotype, our ideal of happiness is in our achievements. The more you have done and achieved, the happier you are. These achievements do not have to be material. Volunteering, work, projects, etc. are “counted”. The main thing is that people feel that they are doing something useful and succeeding.
There are happy countries in Africa where there is a civil war, but the vast majority of respondents still say they are happy. Their ideal of happiness is different. There is something to eat, nothing hurts – and people are happy.
– How far have we departed from the “Soviet person” of the 1990? Have we come closer to Europe in our dreams and actions?
– In some ways we departed, and in other ways we didn’t. This is a very complicated process. Civic political activity was not strongly encouraged in the USSR, and people were so frightened that they do not want to do so yet.
In 1993, we asked, “Do you participate in any community organization?” and 87 percent said no. Today it is 83 percent… And worldwide, the vast majority of people are members of at least one public non-governmental organization.
Maybe we have a little less paternalism. I really hope for decentralization reform in this regard, because there are communities where people have realized that they can change something. Although, it will be a long way.
– You have been studying social and societal changes and trends for many years. Do we have reason for optimism?
– In 2014, Ukrainians clearly chose their geopolitical line, and this line is correct. Earlier, by the way, it did not exist – even after the Orange Revolution, 60 percent of respondents were not against the creation of one or another commonwealth with Russia or Belarus (because they wanted cheap Russian gas, cheap fuel from Belarus, etc.). But the Revolution of Dignity and Russia’s aggression against Ukraine have shown how “friendship” with RF can end.
As for the grounds for optimism, they need to be found. Yes, they are, but if you calm down and do nothing, these grounds may disappear.
Svetlana GALATA, interviewer
“Svit” newspaper № 31 – 32, August 2021